Hello all ,

I have this question about this inter-relations ship between Nichirens Buddhsim .
I wondered since the 4 noble truths are the basics of buddhism and how to connect them to the lotus sutra , however i cant seem to make the connection to that .
So my qeustion to you guys and girls , how do they relate to eachother ?
if there is a connection at all....
but i guess there is since both are ought to be within the guidelined of buddhism ...

Hope you can explain some of it ,or at least give me a clue in this matter ...

gassho ,NMRK !!!

Richard

A couple takes:

1)Suffering of birth and death exist

2)the cause of suffering is our ignorance of the mystic truth
inherent in all living beings

3)This cause, the ignorance of the Mystic truth, can be undone

4)To undo this cause we must perceive this mystic truth which is
Myoho Renge Kyo, by the chanting of Nam Myoho Renge Kyo with faith,
as Nichiren teaches, we can realize this mystic truth innate in all
life (the universal Buddha Nature) and free ourselves from the
Suffering of birth and death.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SokaGakkaiUn...l/message/88166


Dukkha means stressful & unsatisfactory; from what I gather, the Buddha taught that conditioned existence is dukkha -- relative suffering & contentment are both dukkha.

Tanha, the craving for conditioned, circumstantial, or relative sources of happiness, is the cause of dukkha / dissatisfaction.

Unconditioned existence; absolute happiness, is not dukkha, and this is attainable.

The three Great Hidden Dharmas, derived from the Threefold Training, the core of the 8-fold path; open the portal to the unconditioned; which is inherently wholesome, blissful, constant, and authentic.

Hi Richard,

I know that both Rissho Kosei Kai and Nichiren Shu teach the core essentials of Buddhism - 4 Noble Truths, Eightfold Path, Six Paramitas, 4 Bodhisattva Vows. They may have more emphasis there because they view Shakyamuni as the Eternal Buddha and Nichiren as a bodhisattva (RKK does not necessarily view Nichiren as infallible or inerrant which is why RKK does not view the Gosho or Goibun as authoritative scripture). RKK even practices "hoza" counseling which is where one practically applies the core teachings of Buddhism to problems or concerns in one's everyday life. Of course, both Nichiren Shu and RKK chant daimoku and portions of the Lotus Sutra as well. and also teach Ichinen Sanzen.

Soka Gakkai and Nichiren Shoshu come from the Fuji school of Nichiren Buddhism where they view Nichiren as the "Buddha for this Age" and not just a bodhisattva. This is why they emphasize that they view themselves as "true Buddhism". Therefore they tend to emphasize the Gosho as scripture and demphasize the Buddhist sutras and core teachings of Buddhism which come from Shakaymuni which they view as fulfilled in Nichiren and Ichinen Sanzen. They may be right and I certainly may be in error.

But it is all expedient means, eh?

Gassho,

Dave

The Four Noble truths are:

(1) all existence is suffering; (2) suffering is caused by selfish craving; (3) the eradication of selfish craving brings about the cessation of suffering and enables one to attain nirvana; and (4) there is a path by which this eradication can be achieved, namely, the discipline of the eightfold path.

Let us look at the eighfold path in the light of the Lotus Sutra:

Right Views: Viewing the Lotus Sutra as the quintessence of the Buddha's
teachings.

Right Thought: "By what shall I cause the masses of beings To be able to enter the Supreme Way And rapidly achieve Buddhahood." (Lotus sutra Chapter 16).

Right Speech: Preaching the Lotus Sutra (Myoho renge kyo).

Right Action: Action to spread the teachings of the Lotus Sutra.

Right Living: Not begrudging one's life in order to spread the teachings of the Lotus Sutra.

Right Endeavor: Endeavoring to attain Buddhahood and causing the masses of
beings to do the same.

Right Memory: Remembering that one's life is eternal and that we are the original disciples of the Eternal Buddha Shakyamuni of the 16th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra

Right Meditation: Chanting and contemplating Namu Myoho renge kyo with deep reverence for the Three Bodied Tathagata, Shakyamuni of the 16th Chapter of the Lotus Sutra.

Joekraut but never sour

Hi Richard,

You've got some good contributions already...and it seems other people type faster than me! (good work guys) - I'll add my thoughts anyway though.

The Lotus Sutra is a Mahayana teaching that the Buddha taught towards the end of his life. As Nichiren Buddhists we believe it is the Buddha's most profound teaching, the heart of the Dharma, because it was taught from His heart - as He was enlightened, and not an expedient.

The Lotus Sutra assumes a lot of background knowledge of other Sutras, but they're all referred to. The disciples Shakyamuni was preaching to in the Lotus Sutra had been studying with him for many years.

A key concept in the Lotus Sutra is 'skillful means' (or Hoben/Upaya). The Four Noble Truths come up in the very first chapter of the Lotus Sutra, 'Introductory':



So here we see that different teachings were preached in accordance with the capacities of the listener. But you are right, the teaching of the Four Noble Truths is a fundamental principle of Buddhism. In Chapter 3 of the Lotus Sutra, 'A Parable', the Noble Truths are touched on as well for example -



These different teachings are not disconnected however. The Buddha put things in different words and using different concepts in order to guide people and help them understand – the root of these explanations however is the same…the Buddha's enlightenment.

The Four Noble Truths are:

1. Suffering – Birth, Sickness, Old age, Death etc.
2. Cause of Suffering – Defilements or desires
3. Possibility of freedom from suffering - Nirvana
4. The way to eliminate suffering – The Eightfold Path

When we look at the Eightfold path intended for Sravakas or voice-hearers, the disiciples of the Buddha, against the Six paramitas, intended for Bodhisattvas we see similarities:

The Paramita of Generosity corresponds with Right Thought of the Eightfold Path

Discipline ----> Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood

Patience -----> Right Thought

Energy ------> Right Effort

Meditation -----> Right Mindfulness, Right Meditation

Wisdom ------> Right View

So, as Bodhisattvas we should be thinking about trying to live our lives based on the Six Paramitas of generosity, discipline, patience, energy, meditation and wisdom shouldn't we?

Nichiren Shonin says:



So, while we should strive to live our lives utilising the Six Paramitas or perfections, the most important thing is to uphold and believe in the Lotus Sutra - which we do through chanting the Odaimoku. As we continue in our practice of chanting Odaimoku, we'll gradually find our lives attuning to these six perfections naturally. We become more generous, discipline, patient, enthusiastic and dedicated, we'll be more aware of our thoughts words and actions, and we'll have a view of life that is closer to the true nature of life, as it really is.

And as I mentioned earlier about the links between the Eightfold path and Six Paramitas, we can see that our life also comes to mirror those.

So, the fourth noble truth - that of a practice leading to liberation from suffering coresponds with the practice of Odaimoku.

I hope this helps

Ben.

Also in the Three Types of Learning ( 三学, San-Gaku )

Refers to the Three disciplines that Buddhist practitioners seek to master:
Which said to encompass all aspects of Buddhist doctrine and practice.

1) Precepts (Skt shila ) are rules or disciplines intended to prevent error and put an end to evil in thought, word, and deed. -> Kandan -> Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort

2) Meditation (dhyana) is a practice designed to focus one's mind and cause it to become tranquil. -> Daimoku -> Right Speech, Right Mindfulness, Right Meditation

3) Wisdom (prajna) rids one of illusions and enables one to realize the truth.See also meditation; prajna; precepts. -> Gohonzon ( Kanjin )-> Right View, Right Thought


In Nichiren Practice, this would refer Three Great Secret Laws in the respect of :

1) Kandan ( place of the way/Dozo/ordaination platform) when Gohonzon enshired and the practice of chanting Daimoku - place to take the only daimond precept of Lotus Sutra - upholding the SadDharma ) - mudra ( right action )

2) The inovocation of Lotus title - Daimoku - mandra ( right speech )

3) The Gohonzon - Object of Devotion of Observing the Mind ( both common mortal mind and enlightened mind ) - Mandala ( right thought )

ASN

Hi Ansanna,

I haven't been here in a long time...how are you?

The Three Types of learning and the Three Great Secret Laws are also linked to the Three Treasures of Buddhism - Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.

Above, you correlated Kaidan with Precepts, which I agree with.

I have only seen Odaimoku correlated with Wisdom, and the Gohonzon correlated with Meditation - vice-versa to what you wrote above.

I can see why you did though, but when we put the Three Treasures alongside, we can see the following:

Buddha ---------Gohonzon---------Meditation

Sangha---------Kaidan----------Precepts

Dharma--------Odaimoku--------Wisdom

From the book Lotus Seeds:



I can see why you had it the other way though. Interesting.

Does anyone know of any Gosho where Nichiren talks about this?

Thanks

Ben.

We discussed this at some length in the long thread. The schematic Ansanna suggests is based the esoteric principles of Body, Speech, Mind; and Mudra, Mantra, & Mandala. So we have:

Ethics = Body = Mudra = kaidan

Concentration = Speech = Mantra = daimoku

Discernment = Mind - Mandala = Ishtadevata or honzon

I prefer what Ben gave, which I call the exoteric schematic:

Sila = Abhisila or Higher Ethic = Body = Action = Ruler = Mudra = Kaidan = Sangha = Nirmanakaya = Interim Truth

Samadhi = Abhicitta or Higher Spirituality = Mind = Vidhya Wisdom = Teacher = Mandala = Gohonzon = Buddha = Reward Body = Truth of Emptiness

Prajna Wisdom = Abhipanna or Insight = Speech = Compassion = Parent = Mantra = Daimoku = Dharma = Truth Body = Truth of the Middle Way.

When I get stumped, I have a threefold method for dealing with it:

* Kick it, dismiss it as irrelevant, and belittle those who care about it.
* Tie my mind in knots wrestling with it and wind up with a headache.
* Confess ignorance, let go, sleep on it, and come back to it later.

Conflation/Syncresis of the Three Great Hidden Dharmas, Triple Body, & the Threefold Training

"IF you wish to free yourself from the sufferings of birth and death you have endured since time without beginning and to attain without fail unsurpassed enlightenment in this lifetime, you must perceive the mystic truth that is originally inherent in all living beings" -- [No.1, Page 3, col 1, paragraph 1, Content]

"Only then will you realize that earthly desires are enlightenment, and that the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana." -- [ibid No.29, Page 218, col 1, paragraph 13, Content]

1. Sufferings of Birth & Death / endured since time without beginning.
2. Earthly Desire =Bonno, Klesha = defilements
3. free yourself / attain without fail unsurpassed enlightenment in this lifetime,
4. perceive the mystic truth that is originally inherent in all living beings / the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana.

There is not one word in the Four Noble Truths that is not absolutely proved correct by means of being tried and tested. However, The Lotus Sutra also often alludes to a special teaching that supercedes everything else that the Buddha had previously taught. As the Four Noble Truths teaches not only the causes of suffering (dukkha) but also the extinction of it by means of adhering to the Noble Eight-Fold path, then the thing is to practice the means to this end. However, as we've already alluded to, the Lotus Sutra shows us the way of liberation that transcends adherence to external formulae and adherence to pre Lotus teachings

This then is the connection between the Four Noble Truths, the Lotus Sutra and the practice of Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism is, in a nutshell, contained in the Gosho that says:

"If you wish to free yourself from the sufferings of birth and death you have endured since time without beginning and to attain without fail unsurpassed enlightenment in this lifetime, you must perceive the mystic truth that is originally inherent in all living beings. This truth is Myoho-renge-kyo. Chanting Myoho-renge-kyo will therefore enable you to grasp the mystic truth innate in all life".

Gosho: On Attaining Buddhahood in This Lifetime

Hi , Pardon me. Thanks to BenCapon & Hahayana's reminder,

I think I have my reverse the correspnding for Meditation for Gohonzon , and Wisdom for Daimoku in my earlier post. ( I did not have my material available earlier , but the corresponding to the various 8 noble paths are still quite matching )


1) Precepts (Skt shila ) are rules or disciplines intended to prevent error and put an end to evil in thought, word, and deed. -> Kandan -> Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort

2) Meditation (dhyana) is a practice designed to focus one's mind and cause it to become tranquil. -> Gohonzon ( Kanjin )-> Right Mindfulness, Right Meditation

3) Wisdom (prajna) rids one of illusions and enables one to realize the truth.See also meditation; prajna; precepts. -> Daimoku -> Right Speech, Right View, Right Thought


ASN

"Scholars of Buddhism these days all agree that, whether in the Buddha's lifetime or after his passing, those who wish to practice the Lotus Sutra must devote themselves to the three types of learning . If they neglect any one of these, they cannot attain the Buddha Way.In the past, I, too, subscribed to this opinion, [but now this is no longer the case.". -- Nichiren

Visakha the Lay Follower asks: "... are the three aggregates [of virtue, concentration, & discernment] included under the noble eightfold path, lady, or is the noble eightfold path included under the three aggregates?"

Dhammadinna the Nun replies: "The three aggregates [Threefold Training] are not included under the noble eightfold path, friend Visakha, but the noble eightfold pathis included under the three aggregates. Right speech, right action, & right livelihood come under the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration. Right view & right resolve come under the aggregate of discernment." -- Culavedalla Sutta


Morals & Ethics (Sila)
*Wholesome Speech (samma-ditthi)
*Wholesome Action (samma-kammanta)
*Wholesome Livelihood/Occupation (samma-ajīva)

Mental Cultivation (Citta Bhavana) or Concentration {samma-samadhi}
*Wholesome Effort (samma-vayama)
*Wholesome Mindfulness (samma-sati)
*Wholesome Concentration (samma-samadhi)

Wisdom (samma-panna/prajna}
*Wholesome Views/Understanding (samma-dhitti)
*Wholesome Aspiration/Intention/Resolve (samma-sankappa)

Samma can mean right, correct, skilled, wholesome, proper.

"There are these three trainings. Which three? The training in heightened virtue, the training in heightened mind, the training in heightened discernment." -- Sikkha Sutta

* Virtue Training (adhisila-sikkha)
* Mental Training (adhicitta-sikkha)
* Wisdom Training (adhipanna-sikkha)

Vajra System:
*Ethics = Body = Mudra
*Concentration = Speech = Mantra
*Discernment = Mind = Mandala / Honzon

The difference here is that the Mandala or Ishtadevata corresponds to the Truth Body;
and the Mantra to the reward Body. I think.

Hokke System
*Eithics = Kaidan
*Concentration = Gohonzon
*Discernment =Daimoku

Here, the Daimoku is the Truth Body; the Mandala is the Reward Body.

Kaidan relates to proper speech, deeds, livelihood,
Gohonzon relates to skilled effort, concentration, & mindfulness.
Daimoku relates to proper intention and correct views.

"Sabbe sankhara dukkha" = All compounded or conditioned [phenomena] is suffering, stressful, unsatisfying, frustrating. Like the old Rolling Stones song, "I can't get no satisfaction." The Buddha explained why, we are "looking for love [satisfaction] in all the wrong places." However, "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you just might find, you can get what you need."

"Sabbe sankhara dukkha ti yada pannaya passati atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiya." = all Conditioned existence is unsatisfying. When one acquires the skills of discernment and insight, one grows weary of frustration, and seeks the path of purification.

The Buddha explained 4 causes of frustration.

* Mistaking subha {wholesomeness, fortune. purity, attractiveness, desirability}; in that which is asubha {impure, unwholesome, unfortunate}

* Seeking piti / priti {pleasure, joy} or sukha {bliss}; in that which is dukkha {unsatisfying}

* Searching for or expecting nicca / niyta {constancy, continuity, eternity}; in that which is anicca / anitya {inconstant, temporal}

* Identifying atta / atman {an abiding self]; in that which is anatta / anatma {fabricated ego}.

You might recognize that the last three are the three marks. To these is added asubha {unwholesome} which is related to ashuddha {impurity}. You might also notice that the reverse of these are the 4 innate virtues; 四徳 Shitoku:

* 浄 or 清浄 or 遍淨 Subha: Wholesome purity, inner beauty, innocence; actual desirability, appeal, attractiveness, good fortune. [note that shuddha 浄 pure, 遍淨 pervasive puriity, and vishuddha 清浄 purification are conflated with subha].

* 樂 Sukha: Bliss, spontaneous or stable joy, independent of circumstances.

* 常 or 常住 {constant} or 無辺 {boundless, no end} or 無量 {Immeasurable} Nitya: Actual perception of constancy, continuity, permanence, timelessness, eternity, infinitude.

* 我 Atman: Authentic identity; which is a selfless, higher self.

You might also notice that these relate to the 4 bodhisattvas who attend the Eternal Shakyamuni; and also the four frameworks of mindfulness.

The Power of Fours and the Deathless

Thank you Robin

ASN