I'm a long time Buddhist, and I've crossed paths with SGI and other Nichiren sect members. I'm certainly no expert, but I know the basic ideas and differences. I actually like much of Nichiren's ideas.

So... I met this woman and I might be going on a first date. She's a Nichiren Shoshu member and I'm wondering about it.

I don't know this woman well, but so far so good. She knows I'm a non-Nichiren Buddhist. However, I'm a bit apprehensive that she might find my take on the Dharma irreconcilable with her own. I don't have a problem with anyone's beliefs, but I worry she may, for example, object to my altar which has an historical Buddha and a few bodhisattvas. It even has a small copy of a Honzon. I think that would be trouble, for sure.

Anyway, I may be making a big deal out of nothing. Just fishing for ideas and feedback.

Thanks!
Tom

P.S. What exactly does hokekko mean, anyway?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokkeko

I think Hokkeko is the name of Nichiren Shoshu's lay organization (hokke means Lotus, iirc).

I'm a Nichiren Shu practitioner, and all I can say is that I find it difficult to relate to a lot of Western convert Buddhists, namely Zen & Vipassana practitioners. For me, Buddhism is a religion that I have faith in, and a lot of American practitioners seem to regard it as a kind of secular psychotherapy practice or something. I have an easier time talking to religious Jews and Catholics, tbh. So I don't know. That may or may not be how your lady-friend feels as well. I don't think I've ever met a Nichiren Shoshu practitioner, so I don't know how actively they share their beliefs.

Your situation would likely be the same as a Buddhist dating a non-buddhist. Both parties need tolerance and respect for each other religious belief for the relationship to work.

But as a long time Buddhist, I am sure you already know that love emotions are samsaric in nature.

Thanks! I should have checked wiki first, but I did a Google search and was lulled into complacency.

But I'm still a little confused. The reason I asked is because she uses "Hokkeko" as a closing to her emails. I got the impression it must have some other connotation -- like peace through the sangha, or something -- but I don't see it.

Tom

Austex, I am so with you here! I'm basically a Zen guy, but as the years go by I'm a bit sorry to see the devotional and faith aspects of Buddhism being removed from it. It's becoming more and more common. There's the pity.

Thanks!
Tom

Well, you nailed that one so good it hurts, Vincent.


Tom

Hi, Tom -

Could it be "Hokkekyo"? That would be Japanese shorthand for "Dharma Flower Sutra", the Lotus Sutra and the dharma taught therein.

Hi Engyo,

Well, it could be, of course. But that's not what she's writing, which is all I have to go by at the moment. It's Hokekko.

Best,
Tom

Nichiren shoshu claim the name hokkeko was given by none other than Nichiren hisself to the lay fellowship.
It's like a blessing to them.......

Dude realize one thing all tolerance goes out the window when one is a fanatic!

As in all religions some can ignore the pleas of the religion to break and subdue the heathen!!!!! Others find Orgasmic Ferver in shakabuku!!!!

At one point as a good SGI Nichiren Shoshu practioner my district chief and I wanted to have a good ole fashioned book burning at a new member's home....well we were not going to burn the books , just throw out all other religous reading material and paraphenalia to make pure the new members home....We explained how this material in his possesion was going to lead him to hell of inssessant suffering.....hopefully things have changed in SGI and Nichiren shoshu......

afterthought:

I still maintain that SGI and Nichiren Shoshu do amazing work.

It's the ignorance of religous ferver that gets them in trouble with the people that are uneasy in their faith and need to shout to the rooftops and such to hear themselves and wrangle with their faith....my opinion...

I will always tell of my own fanatical episodes...here's one....

Dragging my exwife out of a sick bed and 102 fever to do gongyo so we don't go to hell.....

Listening in awe as Rev. Nagasaka of Myosetsuji temple in Queens tells us the proper attitude of faith....relates that Nichiren would not even bend to fix a broken jappanese shoe sandal deal in front of a temple for fear someone would see him , priest, as bowing in front of a heretical sect temple.....

I remember in my forties, a person who gave up SGI and Nichiren shoshu, entering a Tibetian Gompa and having neurons firing away in my head as people bowed before the statues and Tangkas......Then the shock and the final feeling relieved when Rinpoche instructed everyone to visualize a golden buddha with light comeing from his chest and entering us via our crown and dissovling into us....He instructed if you felt uncomfortable with that image you could use Jesus or if you were jewish one of your jewish symbols or what ever religous belief you had, for they would all work as well.......

But then again...sometimes certain people need a dogmatic approach to see any result in their lives and for me thats ok too....

Can't speak for Nichiren Shoshu. But there were hangovers and insecurities in the first acrimonious years after the split. But none now that I know of. I remember having to convince someone that he wouldn't suffer by having a Buddha image in his garden. Fourteen years on I'm pleased to say that he's still got it.

You mentioned SGI and dogma in the same breath earlier.Got to say that now we're probably the least dogmatic and liberally minded of all Buddhist sects. That's but one reason why we still experience phenomenal growth in membership.

Well, that's kind of what I'm worried about, but we'll see.

Thanks, and I love the Tom Baker avatar!

Tom

Absolutely wrong. Hokkeko is the term that Nichiren used to identify all lay believers. It is not Hokkekyo, which is the Lotus Sutra, and it wasn't given only to Nichiren Shoshu which did not exist at the time. They just adopted the term.

I also wouldn't worry about the differences in the Dharma. She probably doesn't know enough to address the differences, but you can find an excellent guide to Nichiren Shoshu doctrine at the following site so that you will know where she is coming from.

http://hokkeko.us/table_of_contents.htm



Most of the Hokkeko are not fanatics. Certainly not anymore than SGI members, Kempon Hokke members, et al. There are fanatics in all these sects, but that doesn't mean that everyone is. We just get a lot of benefit from our practice and naturally want to share that. That is why you can't talk us out of our practice with all of the rationalizations and unfounded conclusions that people have been spreading for the last fifteen years, almost all of which I have proven to be inconclusive using propositional logic.

From my standpoint, I have awakened to what is the most profound principle of Buddhism (Ichinen Sanzen) and can now see the totality of Buddhism. If that is bad then I guess I must be going to hell. I don't think so though.

Care to cite any examples of SGI fanaticism then mark ? Always best to substantiate rather than make unqualified assertions I find. Not saying that there may not be, but I'm just interested in how you reach your conclusion. Pleased to hear by omission that there are no such damaged people or egocentrics in Nichiren Shoshu though.

Don't need to. It is apparent right here in this forum.

The difference is that I readily admit that the Hokkeko have many problems, but apparently that isn't the case for SGI. They're perfect!

AAO

Go visit Fraught with Peril, Byrd's Blog. Or SGU. There are places those issues are talked about a lot. Some of us get our fill, and just want to discuss Dharma. Since I disassociated, I am becoming less and less interested in internal matters of certain schools ot organizations.

I also no longer care one iota if people disagree with me. I just prefer they do so civilly. Yiu know, I quote Gospel of Thomas to Christians, and think I am flattering Jesus as prseented there, but they can get very defensive, because it challenges their perception of Christ.

Ryuei mentioned, iirc, that we go into fine points of doctrine a lot more than what Nichiren Ministers might be accustomed to in Japan. Sorting out the glaring differences maybe kind of pushed us to investigate more deeply than a typical lay Buddhist in Japan? I mean, Toda wrote that it was grave slander to venerate Shakyamuni. Then, when we got full translations of the Lotus Sutra & Kamoku Sho ... I am thinking hmmmm?

PM me if you have time, on another matter.

I am under the impression he referred to all beleivers as Hokkeshu, that the Hokkekos started forming around 1334? Hokke Shu was changed to Nichiren Shu circa 1519 after Tendai Shu brought a law suit. I think Nichiren even used the words Tendai Hokke Shu or Hokke Shu to include all in Tendai who put Shakyamuni and the Lotus Sutra first, iirc.
Also, the Nichiren School was evidently officially a part of Tendai until 1334 or so.

Is this on topic for this thread? I am more "disinterested" than at any time. I mean that in the sense of having no stake in any view point. I do find it very interesting. The Nichiren Shoshu reform priests appear to have a startling take on the whole business of the "Three Doctrines" -- which I guess they do accept as valid.

palms together, cheerfully.

robin

法華講

法Ho = Dharma
華Ke = Flower
講ko = club, association, fraternal lodge, study group, lecture

It looks like Dharma Flower Lodges started forming right after Hokkeshu 法華宗 Dharma Flower School was legally recognized by Emperor Godaigo about 1333. The name Hokkeshu was later legally changed to Nichirenshu 日蓮宗 about 1519. However, that is not the exact same Nichiren Shu of today, there were lineages, called monryu 門流, but all were officially one school as of then. Nikko's school was called 富士門流 Fujimonryu.

I guess you would have to ask her. I know Nichiren Shoshu members who range from Abner Hale types to very tolerant. As a school, Nichiren Shoshu is thought to be rather picky about proper Honzons. I suspect all but a very liberal priest would officially frown upon an "heretical" honzon. The other thing you might do is attempt to ask her Nichiren Shoshu Minister at some point if that becomes appropriate?

gassho

robin

Any reference here would be appreciated Robby, as I can find none in Sensai Toda's Lecture on the Lotus Sutra. Only that in the age of Mappo worshipping Shakyamuni cannot make us happy.

Cheers

http://www.geocities.com/chris_holte/Buddh...a/jt_lls_a.html

'
Call it a paraphrase then, hyperbole.

"In the current period of Mappo (Latter Day of the Law) the essence of the Hokekyo is only found in the True Buddhism of Nichiren Daishonin, as is well testified by the prophecy of Shakyamuni himself. ... There are two main streams of Buddhism in mankind’s recorded history. One is what is generally called the Buddhism of Shakyamuni and the other, Nichiren Dai­shonin’s Buddhism. The latter is known as True Bud­dhism as distinguished from the former. ... However, as predicted by Shakyamuni himself, Bud­dhism declined with the passing of time until it finally lost the power of redemption. ' -- Josei Toda

I was referring to that sort of bizarre rhetoric.

gassho

robin

I'm sorry, even by any stretch I can't equate any of that to being the equivalent to saying "that it was grave slander to venerate Shakyamuni". Which is quite an important clarification really.

Fine, agreed, point conceded. That was not my point at all. I was referring to claims made in what I quoted, and elsewhere. Those things, those alleged predictions, claims attributed to Nichiren about him being the nin-honzon and so on, just are not there, and were unheard of, apparently, before Nichikan. They are read out of certain phrases in a manner that reminds me of bible code. I do know all of them.


gassho

robin