I am told by one of our posters here that the words ultimate truth are self-evident when used in a Buddhist forum.
I can't say that I know what this statement means.
Can someone please clarify?
Here's the original post for background.
{edited to repair link - thanks HHY}
Full Version: Ultimate Truth
E-sangha, Buddhist Forum and Buddhism Forum > Traditions > East Asian Buddhism > Japanese Buddhism > Nichiren Buddhism
QUOTE(Engyo @ May 6 2008, 04:46 PM)
I am told by one of our posters here that the words ultimate truth are self-evident when used in a Buddhist forum.
I can't say that I know what this statement means.
Can someone please clarify?
Here's the original post for background.
I can't say that I know what this statement means.
Can someone please clarify?
Here's the original post for background.
The above isn't the link to the thread that you had in mind. Vis-a-vis the squabble between yourself and Renchobo on this matter.
namaste
Many people make assumptions that because they understand the meaning of something, everyone else will as well. Now I have not been able to read the post you are referring to, however, the important aspect of 'ultimate truth' is simply that 'truth' lies within each and every individual. Truth is learned over time and experience, IMHO. Now it's very possible that you will get other answers and other clarifications, this is only my perspective. Others may feel free to correct me. 
QUOTE(Engyo @ May 6 2008, 05:46 PM)
I am told by one of our posters here that the words ultimate truth are self-evident when used in a Buddhist forum.
I can't say that I know what this statement means.
Can someone please clarify?
Here's the original post for background.
I can't say that I know what this statement means.
Can someone please clarify?
Here's the original post for background.
I would love to clarify that for you Engyo but I don't know what it means either.
I think that it's self-evident that there's very little agreement on what is meant when the words "ultimate truth" are typed into a field on a Buddhist discussion board.
This is a cause of many a long thread.
This is a cause of many a long thread.
QUOTE(Engyo @ May 6 2008, 11:46 AM)
I am told by one of our posters here that the words ultimate truth are self-evident when used in a Buddhist forum.
I can't say that I know what this statement means.
Can someone please clarify?
Here's the original post for background.
I can't say that I know what this statement means.
Can someone please clarify?
Here's the original post for background.
I can sort of clarify the concept of ultimate truth, There is the concept of conventional truth; sammutti satya or ketai [假諦] and ultimate truth; paramatha satya or Kutai 空諦. Note that Ku 空 / Sunyata / Emptiness and Paramatha Satya / Kutai 空諦 / Ultimate Truth; are not exactly the same thing. Formlessness is an attribute of ultimate truth; it has no specific shape, color, and so on. However, it is not different from shape, color, texture, and so on. Ultimate or absolute truth is not another reality distinct from conventional or relative truth. They are two ways of looking at the same reality. Using western terms, conventional truths would be phenomenon, while ultimate truths would be noumena.
That is my general take; right now.
The Buddha taught the truth of Dukkha and the end of Dukkha. That's enough truth to deal with for this and for a zillion lifetimes. If there's anything ultimate beyond that it's not relevant to my practice.
-M
-M
QUOTE
I can't say that I know what this statement means.
Can someone please clarify?
Can someone please clarify?
no, but I asked dutchpussy and he just walked to the catbowl.
QUOTE(hentopan @ May 6 2008, 07:12 PM)
QUOTE
I can't say that I know what this statement means.
Can someone please clarify?
Can someone please clarify?
no, but I asked dutchpussy and he just walked to the catbowl.
And i think that says it all.....
QUOTE(meindzai @ May 6 2008, 01:07 PM)
The Buddha taught the truth of Dukkha and the end of Dukkha. That's enough truth to deal with for this and for a zillion lifetimes. If there's anything ultimate beyond that it's not relevant to my practice.
-M
-M
Hi.
This is the Nichiren forum. Nichiren accepted T'ien T'ai's concept of three truths; the conventional, the ultimate, and the middle way. Nichiren taught that the cessation of dukkha is waking up to the ultimate truth; which is unconditioned; purity, bliss, constancy, and authentic selflessness. We can attain the deathless now, in this form; in the midst of the impure, the stressful, the impermanent and anatta.
gassho
robin
QUOTE(robby @ May 6 2008, 03:02 PM)
QUOTE(meindzai @ May 6 2008, 01:07 PM)
The Buddha taught the truth of Dukkha and the end of Dukkha. That's enough truth to deal with for this and for a zillion lifetimes. If there's anything ultimate beyond that it's not relevant to my practice.
-M
-M
Hi.
This is the Nichiren forum. Nichiren accepted T'ien T'ai's concept of three truths; the conventional, the ultimate, and the middle way. Nichiren taught that the cessation of dukkha is waking up to the ultimate truth; which is unconditioned; purity, bliss, constancy, and authentic selflessness. We can attain the deathless now, in this form; in the midst of the impure, the stressful, the impermanent and anatta.
gassho
robin
My apologies, as I should have been more mindful of which specific forum I was in. I realize that Ultimate Truth is sometimes used in this way in other teachings.
That being the case I'll just back off from here respectfully since I know nothing of the Nichiren teachings.
-M
Engyo, when I said that ultimate truth is self evident in a Buddhist forum this means that the meaning is inherent in the term "ultimate truth" itself. In other words the meaning of "ultimate" and the meaning of "truth" are self evident terms.
As it relates to my own view of this I have expressed it from the standpoint of the Buddhas wisdom not the opinions of others. When I employed the term to describe my own experience in faith and practice the words and meanings I employed derive directly from the sutra itself. This is why I feel that I am on safe ground.
Furthermore, as a general fact, all of the Buddhas discourses can be said to represent the Buddhas way of distinguishing ultimate truth from conventional truth. This is well accepted in Buddhism generally and it is known as the principle of the two truths. The principle of the four noble truths itself can be seen as two truths whereby the first two truths reveal the effect and the cause of ignorance and the last two truths reveal the effect and the cause of enlightenment. Ignorance is conventional truth and enlightenment is ultimate truth.
Going further all of the Buddhas discourses can be seen as a progression from ignorance to supreme enlightenment. Nichiren defines this as the Fivefold Comparison in his treatise known as the "Opening of the Eyes". Tien Tai defined this as the fourfold rise and fall in his "Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra."
IN the final analysis Nichiren defines ultimate truth from the standpoint of the Fivefold view of revelation and teaches that the practice of chanting Nam Myoho Renge Kyo is the manifestation of ultimate truth itself. Nichiren also says that this ultimate truth has two characteristics. When the eyes are closed one observes the ultimate truth in its universal aspect as "tranquility and brightness" and when the eys are opened this ultimate truth is seen as "wisdom applied to ever changing circumstances".
It is also worth noting that this wisdom is grounded in what is observable with the senses. Therefore it is observable in terms of manifest effects or what is better known as the manifestation of the realms of existence or ten worlds. The ten worlds are manifestations of the ten factors, The first of the ten factors is appearance and the last is manifest effects. Their consistency from beginning to end indicates that both appaearance and manifest effects are what appears in a single moment of life. These appearances or manifest effects either take on the form of ignorance or the form of enlightened wisdom. Therefore the effects that one observes in a single life moment can be said to derive from causes that have originated in the infinite past. Therefore since the cause of ignorance and the cause of enlightenment are both single in nature one can observe the oneness of good and evil or enlightenment and ignorance thereby establishing the principle known as the mutual possession of the ten worlds. This is why Nichiren states that both Shakyamuni Buddha the lord of teachings, the Lotus Sutra which leads all people to enlightenment and we common mortals are in no way niether separate nor different from one another. These are the revelations of ulimate truth.
Moreover Nichiren taught that among the three kinds of proof, the proof of manifest rewards are the most important of all. In this way the practice abides by and is grounded in the principle.
Gassho
As it relates to my own view of this I have expressed it from the standpoint of the Buddhas wisdom not the opinions of others. When I employed the term to describe my own experience in faith and practice the words and meanings I employed derive directly from the sutra itself. This is why I feel that I am on safe ground.
Furthermore, as a general fact, all of the Buddhas discourses can be said to represent the Buddhas way of distinguishing ultimate truth from conventional truth. This is well accepted in Buddhism generally and it is known as the principle of the two truths. The principle of the four noble truths itself can be seen as two truths whereby the first two truths reveal the effect and the cause of ignorance and the last two truths reveal the effect and the cause of enlightenment. Ignorance is conventional truth and enlightenment is ultimate truth.
Going further all of the Buddhas discourses can be seen as a progression from ignorance to supreme enlightenment. Nichiren defines this as the Fivefold Comparison in his treatise known as the "Opening of the Eyes". Tien Tai defined this as the fourfold rise and fall in his "Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra."
IN the final analysis Nichiren defines ultimate truth from the standpoint of the Fivefold view of revelation and teaches that the practice of chanting Nam Myoho Renge Kyo is the manifestation of ultimate truth itself. Nichiren also says that this ultimate truth has two characteristics. When the eyes are closed one observes the ultimate truth in its universal aspect as "tranquility and brightness" and when the eys are opened this ultimate truth is seen as "wisdom applied to ever changing circumstances".
It is also worth noting that this wisdom is grounded in what is observable with the senses. Therefore it is observable in terms of manifest effects or what is better known as the manifestation of the realms of existence or ten worlds. The ten worlds are manifestations of the ten factors, The first of the ten factors is appearance and the last is manifest effects. Their consistency from beginning to end indicates that both appaearance and manifest effects are what appears in a single moment of life. These appearances or manifest effects either take on the form of ignorance or the form of enlightened wisdom. Therefore the effects that one observes in a single life moment can be said to derive from causes that have originated in the infinite past. Therefore since the cause of ignorance and the cause of enlightenment are both single in nature one can observe the oneness of good and evil or enlightenment and ignorance thereby establishing the principle known as the mutual possession of the ten worlds. This is why Nichiren states that both Shakyamuni Buddha the lord of teachings, the Lotus Sutra which leads all people to enlightenment and we common mortals are in no way niether separate nor different from one another. These are the revelations of ulimate truth.
Moreover Nichiren taught that among the three kinds of proof, the proof of manifest rewards are the most important of all. In this way the practice abides by and is grounded in the principle.
Gassho
I think that 'ultimate truth' means something. Maybe it the Nikayas it is expressed as Nirvana w/o remainder. We see this in provisional mahayana expressed as emptiness. We can understand in one that as formlessness; but I think that means neither form nor without form. Therefore, emptiness is nor form, and emptiness is not the absence of form. All phenomena are expressions of the source.
In the Nikayas, we also have purified, unconditioned mind. In higher mahayana, this is expressed as purity, bliss, constancy, and an authentic sense of self. Note that these are the opposites of defiled, dukkha, transient, and anatta. These are two ways of looking at the ultimate. What we see as the latter; is really the former.
Ultimate truth is the same for everyone, but we do not all find it exactly the same way or in the same place. What we can all do it overcome our conditioning and sit for a time in the pure, blissful constancy that is authentic and independent of circumstances. Then we can try to bring that into our daily lives as a higher ethic, healing energies, discerning wisdom, and a genuine, appreciative, death defying freshness.
gassho
robin
"Some look at things that are, and ask why. I dream of things that never were and ask why not?" -- George Bernard Shaw
In the Nikayas, we also have purified, unconditioned mind. In higher mahayana, this is expressed as purity, bliss, constancy, and an authentic sense of self. Note that these are the opposites of defiled, dukkha, transient, and anatta. These are two ways of looking at the ultimate. What we see as the latter; is really the former.
Ultimate truth is the same for everyone, but we do not all find it exactly the same way or in the same place. What we can all do it overcome our conditioning and sit for a time in the pure, blissful constancy that is authentic and independent of circumstances. Then we can try to bring that into our daily lives as a higher ethic, healing energies, discerning wisdom, and a genuine, appreciative, death defying freshness.
gassho
robin
"Some look at things that are, and ask why. I dream of things that never were and ask why not?" -- George Bernard Shaw
QUOTE(Renchobo @ May 15 2008, 02:47 PM)
Engyo, when I said that ultimate truth is self evident in a Buddhist forum this means that the meaning is inherent in the term "ultimate truth" itself. In other words the meaning of "ultimate" and the meaning of "truth" are self evident terms.
As it relates to my own view of this I have expressed it from the standpoint of the Buddhas wisdom not the opinions of others. When I employed the term to describe my own experience in faith and practice the words and meanings I employed derive directly from the sutra itself. This is why I feel that I am on safe ground.
Furthermore, as a general fact, all of the Buddhas discourses can be said to represent the Buddhas way of distinguishing ultimate truth from conventional truth. This is well accepted in Buddhism generally and it is known as the principle of the two truths. The principle of the four noble truths itself can be seen as two truths whereby the first two truths reveal the effect and the cause of ignorance and the last two truths reveal the effect and the cause of enlightenment. Ignorance is conventional truth and enlightenment is ultimate truth.
Going further all of the Buddhas discourses can be seen as a progression from ignorance to supreme enlightenment. Nichiren defines this as the Fivefold Comparison in his treatise known as the "Opening of the Eyes". Tien Tai defined this as the fourfold rise and fall in his "Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra."
IN the final analysis Nichiren defines ultimate truth from the standpoint of the Fivefold view of revelation and teaches that the practice of chanting Nam Myoho Renge Kyo is the manifestation of ultimate truth itself. Nichiren also says that this ultimate truth has two characteristics. When the eyes are closed one observes the ultimate truth in its universal aspect as "tranquility and brightness" and when the eys are opened this ultimate truth is seen as "wisdom applied to ever changing circumstances".
It is also worth noting that this wisdom is grounded in what is observable with the senses. Therefore it is observable in terms of manifest effects or what is better known as the manifestation of the realms of existence or ten worlds. The ten worlds are manifestations of the ten factors, The first of the ten factors is appearance and the last is manifest effects. Their consistency from beginning to end indicates that both appaearance and manifest effects are what appears in a single moment of life. These appearances or manifest effects either take on the form of ignorance or the form of enlightened wisdom. Therefore the effects that one observes in a single life moment can be said to derive from causes that have originated in the infinite past. Therefore since the cause of ignorance and the cause of enlightenment are both single in nature one can observe the oneness of good and evil or enlightenment and ignorance thereby establishing the principle known as the mutual possession of the ten worlds. This is why Nichiren states that both Shakyamuni Buddha the lord of teachings, the Lotus Sutra which leads all people to enlightenment and we common mortals are in no way niether separate nor different from one another. These are the revelations of ulimate truth.
Moreover Nichiren taught that among the three kinds of proof, the proof of manifest rewards are the most important of all. In this way the practice abides by and is grounded in the principle.
Gassho
As it relates to my own view of this I have expressed it from the standpoint of the Buddhas wisdom not the opinions of others. When I employed the term to describe my own experience in faith and practice the words and meanings I employed derive directly from the sutra itself. This is why I feel that I am on safe ground.
Furthermore, as a general fact, all of the Buddhas discourses can be said to represent the Buddhas way of distinguishing ultimate truth from conventional truth. This is well accepted in Buddhism generally and it is known as the principle of the two truths. The principle of the four noble truths itself can be seen as two truths whereby the first two truths reveal the effect and the cause of ignorance and the last two truths reveal the effect and the cause of enlightenment. Ignorance is conventional truth and enlightenment is ultimate truth.
Going further all of the Buddhas discourses can be seen as a progression from ignorance to supreme enlightenment. Nichiren defines this as the Fivefold Comparison in his treatise known as the "Opening of the Eyes". Tien Tai defined this as the fourfold rise and fall in his "Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra."
IN the final analysis Nichiren defines ultimate truth from the standpoint of the Fivefold view of revelation and teaches that the practice of chanting Nam Myoho Renge Kyo is the manifestation of ultimate truth itself. Nichiren also says that this ultimate truth has two characteristics. When the eyes are closed one observes the ultimate truth in its universal aspect as "tranquility and brightness" and when the eys are opened this ultimate truth is seen as "wisdom applied to ever changing circumstances".
It is also worth noting that this wisdom is grounded in what is observable with the senses. Therefore it is observable in terms of manifest effects or what is better known as the manifestation of the realms of existence or ten worlds. The ten worlds are manifestations of the ten factors, The first of the ten factors is appearance and the last is manifest effects. Their consistency from beginning to end indicates that both appaearance and manifest effects are what appears in a single moment of life. These appearances or manifest effects either take on the form of ignorance or the form of enlightened wisdom. Therefore the effects that one observes in a single life moment can be said to derive from causes that have originated in the infinite past. Therefore since the cause of ignorance and the cause of enlightenment are both single in nature one can observe the oneness of good and evil or enlightenment and ignorance thereby establishing the principle known as the mutual possession of the ten worlds. This is why Nichiren states that both Shakyamuni Buddha the lord of teachings, the Lotus Sutra which leads all people to enlightenment and we common mortals are in no way niether separate nor different from one another. These are the revelations of ulimate truth.
Moreover Nichiren taught that among the three kinds of proof, the proof of manifest rewards are the most important of all. In this way the practice abides by and is grounded in the principle.
Gassho
Some people do indeed manifest frightful effects while others manifest great blessings.
Mark
I had some sort of errors in what I posted. I am doing some work on this; here is a bit:
In traditional Buddhism, there is a concept of two truths:
Conventional Truth
Also relative truth, conditional truth.
Pali: Sammutti-sacca Sanskrit: Samvriti-satya
Also: Vohara-sacca / vyavahara-satya which appears to mean spoken truth or relative
truth.
I do not have a good etymology of sammuti / samvriti. It appears to indicate the customary, conventional, practical aspect. There are several different Chinese translations:
俗 mandarin reading is su; the shindoku is likely zoku. It means worldly, social manners, customary, mundane, vulgar, and so on.
世 I am not sure on the readings, it appears to mean public, social. relative
rarely as 假: Shindoku reading ke. It means facile, interim, assumed, temporary, tentative, fake, borrowed.
Sacca / Satya means truth or reality. The Greek equivalent appears to be alathea. The older Chinese texts translate this as:
諦 shindoku reading is tai. This is most likely a transliteration of satya.
俗 諦 zoku?tai: Conventional Truth
世諦 ? tai: Relative Truth?
假諦 ketai: Interim Truth; maybe coined by Chih-I, in the context of samtai 三諦, or Three Truths.
Conventional truth is also connected with the concept of duality dvaita or nini 二二. Also, possibly with form, rupa, or shiki 色; when used as an opposite of emptiness. Also, I think that Shikaku 始覚 or attained / acquired awakening and Shakubutsu 迹仏 or Provisional Buddha both refers to Buddhahood in a conventional. conditional, or relative sense.
In general. Conventional, Conditional, or Relative Truth refers to the Buddha's perspective when he preached with the capacity of the audience in mind. So gon 権 and gonkyo 権経; meaning provisional teaching might be another related time.
In traditional Buddhism, there is a concept of two truths:
Conventional Truth
Also relative truth, conditional truth.
Pali: Sammutti-sacca Sanskrit: Samvriti-satya
Also: Vohara-sacca / vyavahara-satya which appears to mean spoken truth or relative
truth.
I do not have a good etymology of sammuti / samvriti. It appears to indicate the customary, conventional, practical aspect. There are several different Chinese translations:
俗 mandarin reading is su; the shindoku is likely zoku. It means worldly, social manners, customary, mundane, vulgar, and so on.
世 I am not sure on the readings, it appears to mean public, social. relative
rarely as 假: Shindoku reading ke. It means facile, interim, assumed, temporary, tentative, fake, borrowed.
Sacca / Satya means truth or reality. The Greek equivalent appears to be alathea. The older Chinese texts translate this as:
諦 shindoku reading is tai. This is most likely a transliteration of satya.
俗 諦 zoku?tai: Conventional Truth
世諦 ? tai: Relative Truth?
假諦 ketai: Interim Truth; maybe coined by Chih-I, in the context of samtai 三諦, or Three Truths.
Conventional truth is also connected with the concept of duality dvaita or nini 二二. Also, possibly with form, rupa, or shiki 色; when used as an opposite of emptiness. Also, I think that Shikaku 始覚 or attained / acquired awakening and Shakubutsu 迹仏 or Provisional Buddha both refers to Buddhahood in a conventional. conditional, or relative sense.
In general. Conventional, Conditional, or Relative Truth refers to the Buddha's perspective when he preached with the capacity of the audience in mind. So gon 権 and gonkyo 権経; meaning provisional teaching might be another related time.
世sei uasage here means secular or samsaric
俗諦 zokutai: Conventional Truth
世諦 seitai: Secular Truth
Both are similar , refers to Relative/Conditional Truth ( 假諦 ketai)
It fact both have joined and become a compound word 世俗 for secular convection or samsarical usage. It contrast to the higher truth preached in religious realms.
ASN
俗諦 zokutai: Conventional Truth
世諦 seitai: Secular Truth
Both are similar , refers to Relative/Conditional Truth ( 假諦 ketai)
It fact both have joined and become a compound word 世俗 for secular convection or samsarical usage. It contrast to the higher truth preached in religious realms.
ASN
世俗諦 would be read seizokutai?
At any rate; all of the above terms refer to truths which are relative, conventional, conditioned, interim, dual, derivative, provisional, acquired, fabricated, formal, and secular. In the concept of Two Truths these are posed against the absolute, ultimate, unconditioned, constant, non-dual, source, true, innate, unmade, empty, and sacred truth.
From what I can gather, Nagarjuna expounded on the Two Truths as well as the concepts of Formation [rupa, shiki 色] Emptiness [sunatta, shunyata, Ku 空]. This perhaps lead to idealist / monist thinking; which is really another/ dualistic conceptualization. It appears that Chih-I sought to clarify this by creating the concept of santa 三諦.
I discuss Emptiness here:
Going Cuckoo about Ku; Part One; Emptiness and Form
However, I am getting ahead of myself. We should look at the concept of ultimate truth first, then we can see how Nagarjuna's successors possibly conflated the concept of Emptiness with Ultimate Truth.
At any rate; all of the above terms refer to truths which are relative, conventional, conditioned, interim, dual, derivative, provisional, acquired, fabricated, formal, and secular. In the concept of Two Truths these are posed against the absolute, ultimate, unconditioned, constant, non-dual, source, true, innate, unmade, empty, and sacred truth.
From what I can gather, Nagarjuna expounded on the Two Truths as well as the concepts of Formation [rupa, shiki 色] Emptiness [sunatta, shunyata, Ku 空]. This perhaps lead to idealist / monist thinking; which is really another/ dualistic conceptualization. It appears that Chih-I sought to clarify this by creating the concept of santa 三諦.
I discuss Emptiness here:
Going Cuckoo about Ku; Part One; Emptiness and Form
However, I am getting ahead of myself. We should look at the concept of ultimate truth first, then we can see how Nagarjuna's successors possibly conflated the concept of Emptiness with Ultimate Truth.
QUOTE(robby @ Jun 2 2008, 04:03 AM)
世俗諦 would be read seizokutai?
世俗諦 would be read "sezokutai," not "seizokutai."
I would understand that it is also Nagarjuna who expounded the Middle Way as the Ultimate Truth , from the basis of Two truths , absolute (sunyata ) and relative ( temporary existence ).
But Tientai expounded the unification of the three truths for the ultimate reality of non-duality.
ASN
But Tientai expounded the unification of the three truths for the ultimate reality of non-duality.
ASN
QUOTE(Ansanna @ Jun 2 2008, 01:20 AM)
I would understand that it is also Nagarjuna who expounded the Middle Way as the Ultimate Truth , from the basis of Two truths , absolute (sunyata ) and relative ( temporary existence ).
But Tientai expounded the unification of the three truths for the ultimate reality of non-duality.
ASN
But Tientai expounded the unification of the three truths for the ultimate reality of non-duality.
ASN
I am not at all clear on much of that. I have read so many differing interpretations. Did Nagarjuna connect paramartha-satya with shunyata?
Are there different terms for absolute and ultimate?
Did Nagarjuna use the term "shunyata satya" [kutai]. Is there a sanskrit term for 假諦 ketai, other than samvriti-satya or vyavahara-satya? Perhaps anitya-satya?
QUOTE
世俗諦 would be read "sezokutai," not "seizokutai."
So is 世諦 [Secular Truth] read setai?
NIchiren also speaks of the two kinds of emptiness. There is the emptiness that is the universal aspect of all phenomena and there is the emptiness that is wisdom applied to ever changing circumstances.
I can not help but believe that the first kind of emptiness, that is, the universal aspect of all phenomena, is the universal aspect of all phenomena as expounded by Nagarajuna on the basis of the two truth system. The second kind of emptiness; wisdom applied to ever changing circumstances is more consistent with the oneness of the threefold wisdom expounded by Tien Tai: a wisdom that is based on the supreme Middle way and the truth of Kutai, ketai, Chutai. This principle which is derived from the threefold reading and observation of the ten aspects of all phenomena is a form of knowledge which acknowledges the functions of true reality within the world of the temporary life of commoon mortals. It is also the foundation of the principle that earthly desires are enlightenment and that the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana. The threefold secret teaching is also the fruit of enlightened wisdom wrought through the Lotus Sutra.
It is the highest teaching in terms of expedient means as well as true reality.
I can not help but believe that the first kind of emptiness, that is, the universal aspect of all phenomena, is the universal aspect of all phenomena as expounded by Nagarajuna on the basis of the two truth system. The second kind of emptiness; wisdom applied to ever changing circumstances is more consistent with the oneness of the threefold wisdom expounded by Tien Tai: a wisdom that is based on the supreme Middle way and the truth of Kutai, ketai, Chutai. This principle which is derived from the threefold reading and observation of the ten aspects of all phenomena is a form of knowledge which acknowledges the functions of true reality within the world of the temporary life of commoon mortals. It is also the foundation of the principle that earthly desires are enlightenment and that the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana. The threefold secret teaching is also the fruit of enlightened wisdom wrought through the Lotus Sutra.
It is the highest teaching in terms of expedient means as well as true reality.
QUOTE(Renchobo @ Jun 4 2008, 03:13 PM)
NIchiren also speaks of the two kinds of emptiness. There is the emptiness that is the universal aspect of all phenomena and there is the emptiness that is wisdom applied to ever changing circumstances.
I can not help but believe that the first kind of emptiness, that is, the universal aspect of all phenomena, is the universal aspect of all phenomena as expounded by Nagarajuna on the basis of the two truth system. The second kind of emptiness; wisdom applied to ever changing circumstances is more consistent with the oneness of the threefold wisdom expounded by Tien Tai: a wisdom that is based on the supreme Middle way and the truth of Kutai, ketai, Chutai. This principle which is derived from the threefold reading and observation of the ten aspects of all phenomena is a form of knowledge which acknowledges the functions of true reality within the world of the temporary life of commoon mortals. It is also the foundation of the principle that earthly desires are enlightenment and that the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana. The threefold secret teaching is also the fruit of enlightened wisdom wrought through the Lotus Sutra.
It is the highest teaching in terms of expedient means as well as true reality.
I can not help but believe that the first kind of emptiness, that is, the universal aspect of all phenomena, is the universal aspect of all phenomena as expounded by Nagarajuna on the basis of the two truth system. The second kind of emptiness; wisdom applied to ever changing circumstances is more consistent with the oneness of the threefold wisdom expounded by Tien Tai: a wisdom that is based on the supreme Middle way and the truth of Kutai, ketai, Chutai. This principle which is derived from the threefold reading and observation of the ten aspects of all phenomena is a form of knowledge which acknowledges the functions of true reality within the world of the temporary life of commoon mortals. It is also the foundation of the principle that earthly desires are enlightenment and that the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana. The threefold secret teaching is also the fruit of enlightened wisdom wrought through the Lotus Sutra.
It is the highest teaching in terms of expedient means as well as true reality.
Nichiren states, "With regard to the word "ho" of Myoho Renge Kyo, Tien Tai's Profound Meaning says, ' What is meant by Ho is the Ten Worlds and the Ten Factors, existences that are both provisional and true. And it also says, 'To define the proper relationship between the provisional and the true- this is termed ho, or the law.
"Regarding the word "Renge", Tien Tais Profound Meaning says, "The word Renge, or Lotus Blossom is an analogy for the "ho", or existences, that are provisional and true." "To point to the original enlioghtenment attained by the Buddha in the far distant past- this is compared to ren, or Lotus. To clarify the perfect way of the non-duality of provisional and true, this is compared to "ge" or Blossom. The word kyo indicates that it is the voice that carries out the work of the Buddha and this is called Kyo or Sutra". MWNV2pg57
The above indicates that in the final analysis, ultimate truth is simply the reveleation of the Buddhas original enlightenment in the remotest past and the profound significance that this principle of wisdom and insght bears to all the various sutras of the provisional teachings. Therefore the actual mystic wisdsom of the Buddha is known as Myo of myoho renge kyo. Acquiring this wisdom means to acquire the wisdom that all living beings are simply the manifestations of myoho renge kyo and therefore inherently possess the seeds of Buddhahood or Buddhadhatu and the gharba of the tathagata. The wisdom that percieves the ultimate truth of all phenomena in a single life moment permeates the infinite past, the present and the future in this moment.
Nam Myoho Renge Kyo!
Gassho
QUOTE(robby @ May 6 2008, 12:56 PM)
QUOTE(Engyo @ May 6 2008, 11:46 AM)
I am told by one of our posters here that the words ultimate truth are self-evident when used in a Buddhist forum.
I can't say that I know what this statement means.
Can someone please clarify?
Here's the original post for background.
I can't say that I know what this statement means.
Can someone please clarify?
Here's the original post for background.
I can sort of clarify the concept of ultimate truth, There is the concept of conventional truth; sammutti satya or ketai [假諦] and ultimate truth; paramatha satya or Kutai 空諦. Note that Ku 空 / Sunyata / Emptiness and Paramatha Satya / Kutai 空諦 / Ultimate Truth; are not exactly the same thing. Formlessness is an attribute of ultimate truth; it has no specific shape, color, and so on. However, it is not different from shape, color, texture, and so on. Ultimate or absolute truth is not another reality distinct from conventional or relative truth. They are two ways of looking at the same reality. Using western terms, conventional truths would be phenomenon, while ultimate truths would be noumena.
That is my general take; right now.
There is ultimate truth = paramatha sacca/satya and unconditional / absolute truth =
vyavahara-sacca/satya. It appears that Kutai 空諦 is used to translate these terms. Does anyone know if that is correct? Are there are kanji used to translate ultimate or unconditional truth?
QUOTE(robby @ Jul 3 2008, 05:26 AM)
QUOTE(robby @ May 6 2008, 12:56 PM)
QUOTE(Engyo @ May 6 2008, 11:46 AM)
I am told by one of our posters here that the words ultimate truth are self-evident when used in a Buddhist forum.
I can't say that I know what this statement means.
Can someone please clarify?
Here's the original post for background.
I can't say that I know what this statement means.
Can someone please clarify?
Here's the original post for background.
I can sort of clarify the concept of ultimate truth, There is the concept of conventional truth; sammutti satya or ketai [假諦] and ultimate truth; paramatha satya or Kutai 空諦. Note that Ku 空 / Sunyata / Emptiness and Paramatha Satya / Kutai 空諦 / Ultimate Truth; are not exactly the same thing. Formlessness is an attribute of ultimate truth; it has no specific shape, color, and so on. However, it is not different from shape, color, texture, and so on. Ultimate or absolute truth is not another reality distinct from conventional or relative truth. They are two ways of looking at the same reality. Using western terms, conventional truths would be phenomenon, while ultimate truths would be noumena.
That is my general take; right now.
There is ultimate truth = paramatha sacca/satya and unconditional / absolute truth =
vyavahara-sacca/satya. It appears that Kutai 空諦 is used to translate these terms. Does anyone know if that is correct? Are there are kanji used to translate ultimate or unconditional truth?
never mind, I messed that ? up. Sometimes it is best to say "not yet" a middle ground between sour grapes and beating one's head against a wall.
QUOTE(Renchobo @ Jun 4 2008, 01:12 AM)
NIchiren also speaks of the two kinds of emptiness. There is the emptiness that is the universal aspect of all phenomena and there is the emptiness that is wisdom applied to ever changing circumstances.
I can not help but believe that the first kind of emptiness, that is, the universal aspect of all phenomena, is the universal aspect of all phenomena as expounded by Nagarajuna on the basis of the two truth system. The second kind of emptiness; wisdom applied to ever changing circumstances is more consistent with the oneness of the threefold wisdom expounded by Tien Tai: a wisdom that is based on the supreme Middle way and the truth of Kutai, ketai, Chutai. This principle which is derived from the threefold reading and observation of the ten aspects of all phenomena is a form of knowledge which acknowledges the functions of true reality within the world of the temporary life of commoon mortals. It is also the foundation of the principle that earthly desires are enlightenment and that the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana. The threefold secret teaching is also the fruit of enlightened wisdom wrought through the Lotus Sutra.
It is the highest teaching in terms of expedient means as well as true reality.
I can not help but believe that the first kind of emptiness, that is, the universal aspect of all phenomena, is the universal aspect of all phenomena as expounded by Nagarajuna on the basis of the two truth system. The second kind of emptiness; wisdom applied to ever changing circumstances is more consistent with the oneness of the threefold wisdom expounded by Tien Tai: a wisdom that is based on the supreme Middle way and the truth of Kutai, ketai, Chutai. This principle which is derived from the threefold reading and observation of the ten aspects of all phenomena is a form of knowledge which acknowledges the functions of true reality within the world of the temporary life of commoon mortals. It is also the foundation of the principle that earthly desires are enlightenment and that the sufferings of birth and death are nirvana. The threefold secret teaching is also the fruit of enlightened wisdom wrought through the Lotus Sutra.
It is the highest teaching in terms of expedient means as well as true reality.
I think you might have a point here. Kutai 空諦 {Empty Truth} and 空 {Emptiness} might not be the exact same concept. I do not know that there are terms in pali or sanskrit which discriminate between absolute truth and ultimate truth. It looks like paramattha sacca /paramartha satya covers both. We do have a couple different terms for relative truth; those being sammuti sacca / samvriti satya and vohara sacca / vyavhara satya or vyavaharika satya. Then we have a bunch of different kanji renderings of both terms.
I am guessing that Buddhism took a non-dualist, monist, nihilistic or annihilationist turn; and sunyatta / absolute truth came to be viewed as an Ultimate Truth distinct from the relative conventional truth. Then, perhaps Nagarjuna came up with the Three Truths; making an inclusive Middle Way Truth {Madyama Satya?} the Ultimate Truth as distinct from Absolute non-dual Truth {paramartha satya}. I think some probably then saw this a distinct third reality? It appears that T'ien T'ai came up with 円融 三諦 or unification of the three truths. All things are empty, but have a temporary existence, and both express the Middle Way.
誠 Satya translation / sincere / jo
諦 Satya transliteration / truth / tai
假諦 : Temporary or provisional Truth / ketai {T'ien T'ai}
俗諦 : Conventional Truth / zokutai
世諦 : Secular Truth / setai
世俗諦 : Samvrti satya / sezokutai
隨言說諦 : Vyavahara satya as mundane truth / zui gon setsu tai?
俗事 諦 : Vyavahara satya as spoken truth / zoku jitai
色: form . rupa / shiki
二二 : duality, dvaita / nini
空諦: Truth of Emptiness, sunyatta satya / kutai {T'ien T'ai}
勝義諦: paramartha satya / shogi tai
第一義諦 : paramartha satya / dai ichi gitai
不二 : Non-duality; advaita / funi
空 : Emptiness / shunyatta / ku
不色 : formless / arupa / mushiki
中諦: Middle Way / madhyama drsṭi or pratipat / chuta
Minor Correction:
誠 Satya / sincere / jo
諦 Satya / truth / tai
假諦 : Temporary or provisional truth / ketai {T'ien T'ai}
俗諦 : Conventional truth / Samvrti satya / zokutai
世諦 : Secular truth / Samvrti satya / setai
世俗諦 : Mundane truth / Samvrti satya / sezokutai
隨言說諦 : Spoken truth / Vyavahara satya / zui gon setsu tai
俗事 諦 : Conditional truth / Vyavahara satya / zoku jitai
二二 : Duality / dvaita / nini
色: Form / rupa / shiki
空諦: Truth of emptiness / kutai {T'ien T'ai}
勝義諦: Sacred truth / paramartha satya / shogi tai
第一義諦 : Ultimate truth / paramartha satya / dai ichi gitai
不二 : Non-duality / advaita / funi
空 : Emptiness / shunyatta / ku
不色 : Formlessness / arupa / mushiki
中諦: Truth of the mean / madhyama drsṭi or pratipat / chutai
誠 Satya / sincere / jo
諦 Satya / truth / tai
假諦 : Temporary or provisional truth / ketai {T'ien T'ai}
俗諦 : Conventional truth / Samvrti satya / zokutai
世諦 : Secular truth / Samvrti satya / setai
世俗諦 : Mundane truth / Samvrti satya / sezokutai
隨言說諦 : Spoken truth / Vyavahara satya / zui gon setsu tai
俗事 諦 : Conditional truth / Vyavahara satya / zoku jitai
二二 : Duality / dvaita / nini
色: Form / rupa / shiki
空諦: Truth of emptiness / kutai {T'ien T'ai}
勝義諦: Sacred truth / paramartha satya / shogi tai
第一義諦 : Ultimate truth / paramartha satya / dai ichi gitai
不二 : Non-duality / advaita / funi
空 : Emptiness / shunyatta / ku
不色 : Formlessness / arupa / mushiki
中諦: Truth of the mean / madhyama drsṭi or pratipat / chutai
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