I know this can be a prickly disscusion for some so lets be civil, no potshots at othe groups just information. In Shu and Shoshu what is the position of the ordained? Better than the laity, equal to, etc... also I know Shoshu says the laity should support the preisthood(In SGI we support the organization in the same way) what about Shu or other Nichiren sects?

LD -

I can only address Nichiren Shu here; I don't have enough experience with Nichiren Shoshu to comment.

In Nichiren Shu, ministers (my preferred term) are persons who have sworn a vow to dedicate their lives to preserving and propogating the Lotus Sutra and Nichiren's Buddhism. They then undertake years of training and intensive practice before ordination. They are trained to lead service, and to lead other believers in study.

They are respected because of their dedication and perseverance. They are *not* however, special in any way; they are not *above* or more important than ordinary believers. The forms that respect takes in one culture may seem excessive in a different culture; when this happens we try to break down the misunderstanding and come to an appropriate response for the specific situation.

Nichiren Shu ministers (in North America at least) are employees of their temples. They are responsible to their temple's board of directors (as representatives of the congregation as a whole). If a congregation is unhappy with their minister they can and do request reassignment. Per my current understanding, most Nichiren Shu ministers in North America either have outside jobs or are supported by their spouses; I don't think any temple posting here pays anywhere even close to the poverty line (usually far below). We are currently trying to come up with a way to provide health coverage for our ministers; most are again covered by outside jobs or spouses.

My personal theory is that there are several functions necessary to the operation of a religious organization. Someone must officiate at ceremonies (lead gongyo, conduct marriages and funerals, etc.). Someone must lead study efforts. Someone must be available for pastoral care (helping individuals deal with personal problems). Someone must be responsible for protecting the teachings and keeping within doctrine.

You can call these individuals priests or ministers; you can call them leaders; you can call them whatever you like. You can define the requirements to fulfill any of those roles however you like. You can have them wear distinctive clothing, or not. This doesn't change the basic functions which any religious organization needs to address. Some groups choose a very traditional manner in which to address these issues; they have a person take vows and go through an ordination process, after which they are qualified to fulfill these roles. Others choose different ways to qualify people for these responsibilities; it seems a bit silly to me to demonize any organization based on the way it chooses to address such functions.

Just my 2c, of course; Your Mileage May Vary.

Full disclosure: I know whereof I speak - my wife is a Nichiren Shu minister. She is the first American woman and the first person of African descent to have attained full ordination in Nichiren Shu, and to be appointed Resident Minister for a NONA temple.

Itai Doshin in Nichiren Shoshu......

Care to expand on that?


Livindesert,

My experience of the ordained in Nichiren Shu has been similar to Engyo's. The main difference is that I do not have a local minister in my area, so I don't work with one on a daily, face-to-face basis. However, Rev. Myokei of the Houston Temple is the minister for our area, and she does he best to make herself available to the members here and keeps in close touch with us. It's a challenge, but I think our sangha really loves Rev. Myokei's teachings so we do what we can!

When our teachers have visited us they have stayed in our homes and often stayed up very late discussing the dharma with us- it's pretty fun! My own opinion on ordained teachers is that I value them very much. Not because there is something inherently better about them, but that their education, experience, practice, has been through through many more tests and training than mine! I defer to this experience and training as I value my tradition very deeply, but I've never been made to feel that they are superior to the laity. The Bishop of our order told us that the model for Dharma teachers is to be humble and to serve others and that they should always do little and big things to manifest this in daily life. I've found his advice to be very helpful and true.

Nichiren Daishonin also makes this assertion in Letter to Lord Matsuno, "But for your person as a householder the essence is for you to chant Namu Myoho rege kyo with no other thoughts and also to make offering to the monks."

Of course, the Nichiren Shoshu definition of "monks", yours, and mine may differ. When I think of monks, I think of those who have renounced the trappings of the world, desire little in the way of material amenities, are not married, chant, study and do real shakabuku (break and subdue) all day and every day. Come to think of it, I think of Nichiren Daishonin when I think of monks. I give donations to Rev. Tsuchiya who I look at as a priest but not a monk because I think, in this day and age, he comes as close to a true priest as anyone I know. I have a real problem donating alms to laymen.

Mark

Thanks for all of your replies. It is nice to see all of the different and similar ideas out there.



Cool! One thing I noticed is that Nichiren Buddhism seems to attract different kinds of people from different backrounds. They also seem to be the "get her done" go getter hard worker type people.

You've obviously never met me.

sure. I assume you already know the meaning of Itai Doshin, but it does go further then that. I look towards our priests for guidance, advice and direction towards correct practice, they are far more educated then I and have dedicated their life to Nichiren Shoshu for many many years, and in some cases many generations. Aside from being priests, they are just normal people when they are in regular clothes, but apply the law to every aspect of their being and this alone is something i model myself after(or try my hardest)
We work together with a shared common goal and direction. I do not worship the individual, but have pure faith in the Gohonzon.

when I was a Nichirien Shoshu member i was told we could pray directly to the High Priest cause he was part of the three great secret laws and was the same as chanting to the Dai Gohonozon...somehow it became him in a transferance ceramony!

You were in SGI, not Nichiren Shoshu. That is possibly a Japanese thing and is not even suggested by actual Nichiren Shoshu priests. I've never heard it at all in the States even when I was a member of the Soka Gakkai.

Yes. what I think that you're referring to is the priesthood insistence that the high priest must perform an eye opening ceremony over the Gohonzon to empower it - a formality passed down from provisional Buddhism.

But thankfully, we've all moved on now.

No, he was inferring that we idolize our High Priest, which is absolutely rediculous. Also, the eye opening ceremony wasn't even done on Gohonzon prior to High Priest Nikken Shonin, and you should know that because it was brought up by SGI during the split.

We've already had the discussion of the eye opening ceremony and if it is required, and the main point brought up was that why should you have to use the Lotus Sutra to eye open the Lotus Sutra? Not in those words, but that was the jist.
The fact that Nichiren Shoshu does it now is because they are just reacting to a problem with perception.

I think Nichiren Shoshu tends to have a unique tale on the specific & general transmissions. I think this comes from a mikkyo influenced concept of "Transfer to a single person.." That concept also pops up in the kuden texts Nichirem lineages, the Nikko lineage, Tendai, and elsewhere. All of that post dates Nichiren Shonin. There is no evidence he used the phrase.

Kuden 口伝 literally means mouth transmission and indicates secret or confidential teachings not intended for public consumption. From what I gather, transfer to a single person refers to building an underground network of contacts at times when their is active persecution. Each person has one contact, but does not know everyone in the ring or circle.

SGI's Soka spirit site has an article: Refuting Nichiren Shoshu's doctrine of "bequeathal received by just a single person."
link

The article poses some "straw priest" arguments at the beginning. The body appears to have some good hard data, but I only read through it real quickly. Also, Dr. Stone discusses the concept of 'transfer to a single person' for those who are interested.


In the Muromachi period different lineages within the Hokkeshu began to produce and transmit what purports to be records of secret oral transmissions containing their distinctive interpretation of Nichiren's teachings. This adoption of kuden forms on one hand reflected trends in the broader culture; by this time secret master-disciple transmission had become the normative mode of passing on knowledge in religion, literature, and the arts. More specifically, however, it was undoubtedly a product of Hokke-Tendai interactions. Hokke monks studying at Tendai dangisho or on Mt. Hiei would have been exposed to Tendai kuden literature, while Tendai scholar-monks converting to the Hokkeshu would also have been familiar with these forms. It is also possible that increasing rivalry among Hokke lineages may have encouraged adoption of medieval Tendai forms of kuden and secret transmissions as a way of asserting the superior authority of one's own school. -- Secret Transmissions in the Hokkeshu

It was Rev. Nagasaka of the temple in queens NYC Myosetsuji i believe is the name of the temple who taught us when i was a hokkeko member.this was a few years after the split up....

He was quite excited about it and said this was a very important thing to believe in....could have been a nikken thing...i think you guys got a new high priest maybe he doesn't require this anymore

Don't believe everything you hear just because the man is a priest. There are priests who live out their lives not understanding their own nature just as there are laity who do the same. There are also laity who understand much more than the average priest, but then there are Shonin. From these Shonin the Law is taught, but most people don't understand it.

hmmmmm, you heard Rev. Nagasaka say this with your own ears? or did you read it in soka spirit?

in a meeting...i was a member...i accepted it at the time....

why ?....they won't say this anymore....ask him!
i'm not bullshitting...look at my posts....do i lie....

I don't doubt it at all. The priesthood thought they could treat American members the same as they treat Japanese members, but it doesn't work. We question what the Japanese will not.

The priesthood is not entirely to blame for this. They think that anything they can do to keep a person chanting the Daimoku is fine, and I agree. However, Americans just don't fall for the same old expedient means that the Japanese
fall for. The Japanese are extremely superstitious, but that is not so with Americans.

Mark he was raising the status of the High Priest...i think the High priest is one of the three treasures or three great secret laws or both....in any case....i used to hold on to Rev Nagasaka's robe whilst chanting...lol...some people got jelous..lol...i pretended to be the fly on the thorobred horse travelling a thousand miles....I'll try anything to win lotteries dude!!!! lol!

Hi Dr. Who!

Daisaku Ikeda, as defacto representative of the SGI Sangha, is considered one of the Three Treasures in SGI Buddhism, although Nikko is cited rather than Daisaku Ikeda. In the Nichiren Shoshu, the High Priest is the defacto representative of the Nichiren Shoshu sangha, although, once again, Nikko is cited. In the Kempon Hokke and the Nichiren Shu, Nichiren is the defacto and actual representative of the Treasure of the Sangha.

Mark

A note on shonin. There are two rather different words; which are homophones. If you look at the kanji, they are not written the same. If we say Nikko Shonin, Nikken Shonin, and so on, we are saying Reverend. We have at least one Shonin here, Myokei Shonin. That Shonin is written like this: 上人. It is a rough translation og Bhikkshu.

Nichiren Shonin is written like this: 聖人. That is a translation of Muni, as in Shakyamuni. It translates as either Sage or Sage.

Daisaku Ikeda was never considered the 3 treasures, it is Nikken who asked ppl to follow him as said by ppl earlier. But Nichiren Daishonin himself asked ppl to follow the Law and not the person, who is Nikken to think he is great?

and can u explain the incident of throwing the ashes of the decreased using garbage bags which Nichiren Shoshu temples did??

Hi, Yuan -

Welcome to E-Sangha! I hope you enjoy it here, and I look forward to your contributions.

A gentle reminder: Your second paragraph is completely off-topic for this thread. Do you have any comments that are on-topic?

Off topic and false.

Also, from the stanbpoint of Appearances... the statement does give insight for others to know the difference of (for the laity or for self). But who am I to judge when continued practice and study supports faith to win over ones own self-limitations as taught by the three founding presidents of the SGI.

A gentle reminder: SGI prefers those interested in our movement to seek the nearest Community Center or call the the Main Headquarters in Santa Monica, Ca. sgi-usa.org has all the pertinent information there.

how many times can something be "founded"??

i just think it's tasteless to do a hit&run post like that, regardless of topic/forum/website. Bad etiquette...

Closer insight describes the bond of Teacher and Student, Teacher and Student.

Like the flow of rivers into the large Ocean.. . o O

(The Writings of Nichiren Daishonin)


In theory, Teacher and Student / Student and Teacher to attain the Buddha Way as in "Heritage of the Ultimate Law of Life."