Hi,

I would like to know, as nichiren was a tendai monk, if he learn this tradition of shakubuku in tendaï and what are the source in dharma scripure for this concept.

Thks a lot
Komyo

Komyo,

Forgive my ignorance, but please provide a definition of Shakubuku. Unfortunately I've found 4-5 differing definitions online. If you can provide me with a definition I will be sure to find out if Tendai has a component of this tradition. My first reaction is no as I've only heard of it in relation to Nichiren but will need to confirm.

Jake

According to Hisao Inagaki’s A dictionary of Japanese Buddhist Terms in English 5th edition

Page 286
Shakubuku 折 (or 責) 伏 ‘To break and suppress’: to denounce or defeat evil: to suppress devils and opponents of Buddhism, or to destroy heresies.



Hope this helps

That doesn't really define it in any concrete way though.

thks, there's these interresting work on this concept at the following page
http://www.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/public...jrs/pdf/421.pdf
but with always a lack of informations on the origin of the concept.

Anyway the word Shakubuku 折 伏 came directly from the Mahayana sutra itself ( if I am not wrong, it inside Lotus Sutra too )

Usually buddhist terms are taken direct from sutras

ASN

Hi

The two methods of propagation that are shoju and shakubuku were not Nichiren's invention. These two kinds of practise are described in the Shrimala Sutra, and also in Chih-i's 'Great Concentration and Insight', and elsewhere as well.



Shoju means 'gentle persuasion' - which is when someone basically sets a good example. They don't refute other people's beliefs. People will natuarally come to respect this person and act like him/her.

Shakubuku literally means to 'break and subdue'...I know....sounds pretty intense doesn't it? Importantly though, this doesn't mean being dogmatic or rude to people or insulting their beliefs. What it means is to tell the truth that the Lotus Sutra is the teaching that can lead people to enlightenment in Mappo. Nichiren said that the correct form of shakubuku is shown in the example of Bodhisattva Never Despise (from chapter 20 of the Lotus Sutra).



So, this 'break' and 'subdue' is not violent or anything like that. It is to teach the truth to someone who upholds erronous beliefs, and dispell their misconceptions about the truth. It's saying, 'while you may believe x, I actually believe that embracing the Lotus Sutra, and chanting the odaimoku is what will make you happy, and will enable you to attain enlightenment'.

Ben

Gishin,

Thanks! My copy of the Japanese-English Buddhist Dictionary defines Shakubuku as "to subdue evil" and "to conquer evil aggressively." Which is similar to what you've posted, however the always reliable internets has several other definitions floating about so I wasn't sure to which definition Komyo was referring.

I am unfamiliar with the use of this term in Tendai and was unable to find it in any of Chih-I's work, Saicho's Candle of the Latter Day and Gishin's Collected Teachings of the Tendai Lotus School.

I have a feeling that Shakubuku has taken on different meanings over the years and sect to sect. Some of my reading on this term suggests it is more of a "testimonial" or "evangelical" approach to spreading the teachings of Nichiren/Lotus Sutra whereas some other materials suggest it is the aggressive denouncing of what are deemed "slanderers."

Komyo, can you provide us with a definition?

The first I'd ever heard of this term was in the film "Grosse Pointe Blank"

Take care,
Jake

This is one of my biggest pains in the bottom about Buddhism, the inability to just pick up reference books and understand it all. It's been an oral tradition so long we can have all the books we want but without a solid teacher in a strong lineage with years of training and experience books won't help much. There is a Nipponzan Myohoji Buddhist Temple here in town and I'll swing by there one day this month and ask for an explanation of Shakubuku.

Jake

Ansanna,

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the Sanskrit and/or Chinese equivalent of Shakubuku? Perhaps then I will be able to locate the term in one of my translations of the Lotus Sutra. Do you have a reference for the use of this term in the Mahayana Sutra?

Thank you,

Jake

Hi,



Japanese: Shaku buku
Chinese: Che/she fu
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Regarding the definition of shakubuku:

Found this interesting webpage which looks at the meaning of shakubuku by examining the kanji (chinese characters)

http://www.gakkaionline.net/Imagery/Shakubuku.html

Ben

hi thks for these informations, is it possible to have quote from " the Shrimala Sutra, and also Chih-i's 'Great Concentration and Insight', whats you mean by elsewhere exactly ?

gassho
Komyo
(Sorry for the mistakes english is not my native langage)

Hello,

I was recently reading a passage in the Goibun that I thought might shed some light on this question.

It comes from the Nyosetsu Shugyo-Sho- True Way of Practicing the Teaching of Buddha, and its from Writings of Nichiren Shonin:Faith and Pratice-Vol.4

It is divided into sections, and its too large to retype all of it here, most of this direct passage pertains to the origin of Shakubuku.

"Grandmaster T'ien T'ai declares the teaching [shakubuku] in his Profound Meaning of the Lotus Sutra, fascicle 9: 'The Lotus Sutra is the teaching that aggressively denounces the evil of provisional teachings'

Nichiren also quotes the Nirvana Sutra as the basis for shakubuku. But, there is no specific passage or chapter mentioned, just a quote.

Additionally, Nichiren states that his ideas of Shakubuku are based on the time in which we live. He believes that now is the time for the Lotus Sutra, and based on the needs of the populace it's rather useless to spread other provisional teachings. He does say that all the teachings are needed, but for the proper time and capacity of the audience.

From reading this and other Goibun, I am certain Nichiren was very clear about what he said and why said it. There is another passage in which Nichiren very clearly admits he is aware that he methods are irksome to his opponents, but believes that it is the best way to get his message out. I believe there is some of this discussed in the last section of Senji-Sho.

SM

Hi,
From the classical Buddhist canon,

Shakubuku and Shuju ( 折伏, 摄受 ) are both derived from the Bodhisattva’s compassion in the teaching the sentient beings, Although the methods may seems different, but it is come from the correct intent of a compassionate heart , that is the proper path in Bodhisattva. If a time need to shakubuku ( rectify the errors ) and fail to do so, allows the slandering to prevail, it is actually breaking the Bodhisattva vows. The reason is to ensure the purity of Dharma to continue.

QUOTE

Shirimala Sutra states the world honor one should apply Shakubuku those need to be Shakubuku and apply Shoju those need to be shoju, why is this so? Because such Shakubuku and Shoju could ensure the Dharma to endure to eternity.

(勝鬘經云。世尊應折伏者而折伏之。應攝受者而攝受之。何以故。以折伏攝受故令正法得久住 )

Shakubuku the ‘bad’ people and Shoju the good people are the 2 gates in Buddhist basic path ( 折伏恶人，摄受善人，此二门乃是佛道大纲 )

Following are some of the scriptures/commentaries that touch on Shakubuku , from the Taisho canon
0353 勝鬘師子吼一乘大方便方廣經1435 十誦律
1453 根本說一切有部百一羯磨卷
1458 根本萨婆多部律摄
1716妙法蓮華經玄義
1718 妙法蓮華経文句
1735/1736大方廣佛華嚴經隨疏
1777 維摩經玄疏
1778 維摩經略疏
1912 摩訶止観commentary by Zhanran湛然
2122 法苑珠林




Ansanna

Hey All,

This is not directly responsive, but in a way responsive to the original inquiry in general.

I think its been pointed out that shakubuku is not limited to the Nichiren context. This is a post where I kind of had a conversation with myself about Shakubujku Shoju. I think it does a decent job of placing these concepts in the context of Nichiren Buddhism.

http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php...ndpost&p=649433

But, more generally, as I was saying, there are both passive and aggressive methods recognized in many Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions. In Japanese Buddhism we have both the compassionate Buddha manifestations as well as the fierce Buddha manifestations - in Shingon the Mahavairochana / Fudo Myo'o. The compassionate Buddha manifestation leads people to enlightenment with compassion (Shoju). This is the image of Buddha most common with the Buddha seated in samadhi, slight smile, etc. For practitioners with the capacity for it, there are the fierce Buddha teachings where ignorance is aggressively removed (Shakubuku). These are represented by the Buddhas having fierce appearances of demons holding swords, axes, vajras, severed heads, etc. etc. This same compassion / fierce aspects of Buddhas is very common in the Himalayan Buddhist traditions.

As I understand it, this is the core of the Shoju / Shakubuku dichotomy. The fierce stuff scares most people as it should - its a very powerful practice, and with power comes more opportunity to screw up your karma. Hey.

Cheers
Q

I must have missed this thread. I think the Kanji implies beating over the head, and bringing to the knees. My take is it means to correct erroneous views. I take shoju to mean to show someone how to practice. Both are appropriate methods of evangelism, I think.

I suspect the use of metaphor has clouded the differences. Shakubuku is taken to be a very aggressive approach. In a sense, it is aggressive, but I think it is in an intellectual way. Correcting wronmg views does mean one must be rude or demanding. That might actually get in the way. Now, Shakubuku takes place in the Pakli Canon

When this was said Saccaka the son of Nigan.tha became silent. For the second time, the Blessed One asked, Aggivessana, you say matter is your self, do you wield power over that matter, as may my matter be thus and not thus?. For the second time Saccaka the son of Nigan.tha became silent. Then the Blessed One said, explain it, Aggivessana. It is not the time for you to be silent. If someone does not reply a rightful question asked by the Thus Gone One up to the third time, his head splits into seven pieces..At that moment Vajrapaani the demon was seen in space with a flaming thunderbolt in his hand, as though to split the head of Saccaka the son of Nigan.tha if he did not reply the rightful question asked up to the third time by the Thus gone One. Vajrapaani the demon was seen by the Blessed One and Saccaka the son of Nigan.tha. Then Saccaka the son of Nigan.tha frightened and with hairs standing on end, sought the refuge and protection of the Blessed One said, Good Gotama, ask me, I will explain. -- MN 35: Culasaccaka Sutta (The Shorter Discourse to Saccaka)

That seems like rather aggressive shakubuku; Saccaka is subdued by a threat of having his head split in 7 pieces. It has been a while, but I do not think that imagery is found in the Mahasaccaka Sutta, or the longer discourse. Instead, the Buddha responds to Saccaka's insults by calmly reasoning with him. The end result is the same, the Buddha successfully refuted the Jain's erroneous views, and thus persuaded Saccaka. So, I think we can take beating someone over the head, and subduing them, as a metaphor for successfully correcting their wrong views with clear and sharp reasoning. Still, some think that Shakubuku means threatening someone with divine punishment.

Shoju, on the other hand, implies a peaceful approach. It is, in that one is not bothering to correct erroneous views. However, showing someone how to practice can be done aggressively. I have seen it done that way. I have also seen threats made. I do not think that is shakubuku. Just declaring "I am right, you are wrong, you better do it my way," is not correcting someone's erroneous views. Yet, I have seen that done, and called shakubuku; but really, it is an aggressive form of shoju.

robin